Learning what’s new in Canada’s podcast scene
Why does Calgary have so many fake lakes? What is the Winnipeg legislature’s connection to the Freemasons? How is Trump’s family fortune connected to Whitehorse?
These are all questions that Kattie Laur tackles on her new podcast, Canardian. Every episode, she sits down with a podcaster from a different part of the country to share weird and wonderful stories from their hometowns.
There are more than 16,000 podcasts based in Canada. It’s not an insignificant number — though it feels much smaller when you compare it to the 1.8 million podcasts based in the U.S.
We’re very much used to living in the shadow of the States when it comes to media making — and maybe that’s why we don’t talk too much about what’s being produced at home. But at a time where podcast listenership is on the rise (and people in Canada are listening to more Canadian podcasts!), it’s an opportunity to look closer at what’s happening within our own borders.
When Laur isn’t podcasting small-town gossip, she runs the Pod the North newsletter. It’s been a way for her to learn even more about the industry, and develop an expertise and understanding across many of the country’s podcast niches.
I met with Laur to talk about Pod the North, what she sees as the biggest issues facing Canadian podcasting, and how Canardian helped her infuse more joy into her podcasting practice.
Audio was produced in collaboration with the Community Podcast Initiative at Mount Royal University.
This conversation has been edited for clarity.
Meg Wilcox:
Hi Kattie, thank you so much for joining me today.
Kattie Laur:
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Meg:
I wanted to start with Pod the North. So you’ve been podcasting for a very long time? Since around 2013. It wasn’t until fall 2022 that you created the Pod The North newsletter. And I’m wondering what made you think it was time to put in the time and effort that goes into a newsletter? It’s not a small endeavor. And what were you hoping to get out of it?
Kattie:
Well I’ve been in the podcasting space 2013 and trying to get into it for I think it would have been like almost 10 years at that point. And until 2022. I learned a lot about what I do know about getting a job in podcasting and what I don’t know about getting a job in podcasting. So in 2022, I had been freelancing for about three years. And that meant I was taking on projects as an independent producer, just me and the client producing their show. I was also working as a contract, contractor with some studios, including Vocal Fry Studios. And that’s where I met some fellow freelance podcast friends and kind of over time, I realized that we were all starting to have the same frustrations with the Canadian podcasting ecosystem as I commonly reference. That being that while there seems to be opportunity to pitch shows and come up with ideas to networks like CBC or Rogers, still, a lot of people who are professionals like myself weren’t getting — didn’t feel like we were getting acknowledged for our work and our expertise. And it really felt fractured. There was a lot of events that you would go to where, you know, you’d see CBC on one side of the room and all the independent podcasters on another side of the room, and all of the freelance podcast producers on the other side of the room, and nobody was really collaborating.
I actually wrote a blog article, called Canadian Networks, Please don’t Abandon Independent Podcasters. I wrote that blog post on the Vocal Fry Studios blog. Put it out. I thought it was feisty as heck and I put it out, went on vacation, and kind of expected to come back from vacation, assuming it would have blown up and I was going to get all these emails and I got nothing. I came home and like it was crickets. Nobody really reacted to this blog post, but I still felt this dire need to put this message out there and connect with people. So I sat on it like all summer and eventually decided to launch Pod the North and just do interviews and write pieces that kind of opened up what was going on in this space, so that everybody was on the same page and knew what everybody’s thinking about.
And it was really the interview that I did with CBC Podcasts about their pitching process that I think caught people’s attention because I asked them straight up “how many emails are you getting? What is your pitch process look like when you’re going through all of these things?” Because this was information nobody knew. So that was kind of like, the floodgates opening to Pod the North.
Meg:
I’m thinking, you know, so those first newsletters came out, they were maybe a little bit more quiet, weren’t generating as much conversation. But then this one comes out with CBC and suddenly a lot of people seem to care, and it seems like you were providing information that had previously not been available for these people. And by these people, I mean other producers and independent podcasters. What did you start hearing from people after that?
Kattie:
I’m almost nervous to say what I started hearing, because it was a lot of people who were, like, deeply unimpressed with the pitch process that was happening with CBC. And a lot of people seemed to really resonate or find each other like “man, you didn’t hear from them.” I mentioned, ou know, I’ve sent a pitch before.
I got no email back, like where I just sent my pitch off into the ether, and now I’m wondering what’s going to happen with it, especially when you put a lot of time and effort into it. And sometimes you get advisors to look at it for you and make sure it’s, you know, picture perfect and then you don’t hear anything back and you start to wonder, are they even looking at this? Did they look at it in there? Are they going to steal it from me? You just don’t know any of these things. So those were questions that a lot of people had I think, and those are people emailing me saying “I was wondering the same thing about that.” And then I think it put a little bit of more pressure on CBC to realize, like, what their role was in the ecosystem because, not to get too fiery or anything, but I did start to hear from CBC people after that came out.
I hadn’t once gotten an email reply in my three years of freelancing, but my six years of just trying to apply for jobs in podcasting and radio prior to that. So I never got, once, got email replies. So this final time that I did, and now I’ve actually built strong connections with people at CBC in the podcasting department who trust me to make good recommendations, to listen to my feedback, have asked for my feedback about things.
So I think that just showed me that there was people were taking this idea that things don’t need to be fractured seriously, and we don’t need to be as competitive, quote unquote, as our folks in the States, because we are already up against American podcasts. So it’s up to Canadians to kind of help each other out and elevate each other, because once I’ve realized over time that a lot of these people have the same questions as me and want to have the same answers that I have, that I’m getting that, this ecosystem is actually quite small, and everybody should be really helping each other out because there’s not a lot of us in Canada that are doing this.
Meg:
And always just in the shadow of the States and just the larger population and more people doing it. I’m curious you know what you’ve been learning. There’s sort of what you said, you saw that the Canadian podcasting ecosystem was as you started the newsletter. Has that changed for you? How would you describe the Canadian podcast ecosystem now?
Kattie:
I would say, it’s so hard to describe it now because I think it’s in transition. I think that’s maybe the way to describe it. The way that it felt when I first entered felt tight knit, exclusive and limited. And now I’ve, I think, I don’t know, this is the thing, because of the work that I’m doing with Pod the North, I have built a lot of connections. And, I’m really starting to foster connections with other people. And I don’t know if it’s a bubble that I’ve created for myself, where only I am very much accessible to a lot of folks now and maybe it’s not the same thing to most other Canadian indie podcasters where they don’t have those connections, and it is tougher for them to reach out because they don’t have a brand behind their name kind of thing.
But I have noticed lots more folks reaching out to me asking for actual insights from me about how to elevate the ecosystem. Folks from behind conferences like Pod Summit, where I spoke to Tim at length multiple times over Zoom calls about what we thought would be a successful conference compared to others. And working with networks about what they’ve asked me, like what I’m hearing from other folks about maybe certain content or that kind of thing. It just seems like people are more willing to listen to each other within Canadian podcasting. And I think I’m seeing a transition of Canadian podcasts, being elevated in that way. I think not that it’s all on me, but I have noticed a lot more Canadian podcasts coming to the forefront and actually being well known, maybe more household names. And that’s indie podcasts as well that I’ve noticed getting a little bit more attention, which is exciting. I hope that answers your question.
Meg:
I think so. I think it’s, you know, when we’re thinking about like, how would you characterize maybe the podcasts that are coming out in Canada? How is it different or unique from, let’s say, the States or in other place, or is it not necessarily.
Kattie:
I don’t think it is necessarily, to be honest. Like I think there’s I forget who said this, but I agree that I think great stories are being told everywhere. I think there’s just more money in the States. And that’s the only difference is that, there is more money between networks before, in front of, advertisers to sponsor networks. And that’s putting more dollars behind podcasters to then market their podcast better, do more promo swaps with higher numbers, things like that.
They just have more funding to back them. Whereas in Canada, from my experience in podcasts that I’ve worked on, two have talked about this, about how Canadian culture is just a bit more conservative when it comes to experimenting and putting yourself out there. So it is still taking time for advertisers to sponsor Canadian podcasts to even dip their toes into the podcasting space, for Canadian brands to dip their toes to the podcasting space and make branded podcasts.
So that’s opening up more opportunities for freelancers. Canadians just have this more timid approach to the podcasting space, which is, I think, due for a change. And I think that is happening right now.
Meg:
That’s interesting. I also feel that the challenge for Canadian content is obviously it can become popular in the States, but things like accent topics or if it’s considered relevant may or may not fly in the States. You can look at some examples like say, Schitt’s Creek. Fantastic. But I mean, I know I hosted a podcast, a branded podcast, that was like an American company in the States, and apparently one of the first things that was heard. They told me not to hide my accent or anything, but people were just like, well, why is a Canadian hosting this? They could hear it immediately. They can tell. And it made me realize that, yeah, we sometimes have some encoded elements that like to be able to market that to the states can be tricky to in those larger audiences.
Kattie:
Yeah. I don’t know, I don’t have any numbers sadly, to back any of that anything up in that regard. Because I’ve heard folks say Americans say they love hearing Canadians host podcasts because they think we’re our accents are so cute, or they just think that we’re nice and friendly. But like, I honestly don’t notice a big difference between Canadian and American accents or hosts or content for that matter.
I think there’s a general idea in Canadian content that we want to support more Indigenous stories, which I think is, is much more of a Canadian thing to do than, what’s happening in the U.S. But in terms of content, like, I think we are making just as high caliber content for sure. We just don’t have the money to support a full on ecosystem like they have.
Meg:
Are there any other gaps you see? I mean, obviously money’s going to be a big one always. But anything else?
Kattie:
Have to think about that. I think, one big gap that is relevant for our journalism audience is definitely our laws that are currently being put in place. C-11 and C-18 are definitely going to impact Canadian podcasting in some, in some capacity. I don’t think it’s anything of concern yet for independent podcasters. And for anyone not familiar with C -1 or C018, C-11 is the Online Streaming Act.
C-18 is is similar to that just for news. So the Online Streaming Act specifically in the podcasting space is limiting, how podcasts can be distributed almost. But the whole intent behind it is to get money from big tech giants like Spotify, Apple to then go into creating, supporting creators and streamers, Canadian ones.
Hopefully that makes sense. But that’s something that a lot of people have been concerned about, especially as we try and access news on Instagram and Facebook and we can’t access those things. And I’ve noticed even stuff that isn’t news I don’t have access to anymore because it’s just so I don’t understand how the algorithm is really spotting these things.
So a lot of people have concerns around how their podcasts are going to be accessed on a global scale rather than, or even for Canadians, if that’s going to be limited. Canadian content is going to be limited from Canadians, that nobody knows what this is going to look like. And I think we’re probably going to have a better idea in like three years or so.
But that’s the main thing that’s on Canadian podcasters, mind that I’ve noticed, that isn’t anything to do with money.
Meg:
Yeah, well, and it’s funny because it is ultimately kind of about money, but like, you know, who’s paying out and where and who might be getting that. But the bigger challenge I mean we see it right now. Just any news content and not being able to access it now on social media. What that means for these news organizations that are trying to get information out, but also the challenges, it’s these, I’m going to say like different, I’m thinking platforms like Instagram or whatnot, they get to decide what’s news and what isn’t. That their time to try to share a link and I think, well, this isn’t even news. This is commentary. But they’ve decided that I can’t share that link because they’ve identified it as news. So that becomes an element to, that depending on what you’re doing is a series you may not consider it news, you might not consider it journalism, or it might be a mix with some of that element, but someone else might make that decision for you.
And, you know, marketing I think, is the biggest thing for podcasts these days. How do you get people to know about your show and engage? And if you have a really big impediment on social, what are your options?
Kattie:
Yeah, yeah. And like it’s interesting because, when it comes down to it, like the biggest part, the biggest way to grow your show really comes down to cross promotions, working with other podcasts, and making yourself accessible. And you can make more money by getting more listeners. So having an engaged audience and if you can’t, if you keep running up against stumbling blocks or roadblocks that keep you from getting those impressions and those listeners, then you’re just kind of at a plateau. So Canadians definitely don’t need any more roadblocks, that’s for sure.
Meg:
I was going to say, speaking about shows and getting ears and attention, one of the new things that you’ve developed or has come out in April is your Podcast Canadian. And, I mean, you make podcasts for a living, then you’re also doing the newsletter. I’m curious what made you think now is the time to, to start a podcast and host it?
Because I feel like I constantly hear from podcasters as they’re like, oh, I know exactly how much work goes into a podcast. Like, I’m not going to make my own personal podcast.
Kattie:
Honestly, I can’t even remember what made me decide that now is the time to start making it. I just sort of did. Other than the fact that it was the end of 2023, it was maybe like November, I think. I was brewing on a podcast idea for about a year. And because I knew I’m such a big fan of the podcast Normal Gossip, I really wanted to do something sort of similar to that where I could tell stories, just be silly and goofy and have fun. But I knew I wanted to incorporate some way to bring in Canadian podcasters and highlight more of their voices than what Normal Gossip typically does with their guests. so I wanted to figure out a way to incorporate Canadian podcasters as sort of like the main event. So I was thinking about it for a while. How do I do this? Sort of like gossip storytelling thing with Canadian podcasters that isn’t just talking about podcasting or talking about their show. And that led me to this idea of hometowns, which I love because I immediately referenced me moving to my new hometown of Brantford, Ont., and all of the quirky, wild stuff that I’ve learned about where I live.
So I was like, oh, there’s got to be plenty of hometown gossip from other people, no matter where they’re from in Canada. So that led me to that. But the whole point of that show is really to highlight Canadian podcasters so that people hopefully fall in love with who those people are and then go listen to their show. So it’s sort of my sneaky attempt to do cross-promotion for podcasters while also just having a good time and getting to host a show, which I never really get to do and I’ve always sort of dreamed of doing, and just being stupid and silly on a podcast and having a nice time. So it’s melded all of those things that I’ve been wanting to do together, and then doing it at the end of 2023 was after I had finally — I had gone to Hot Docs podcast festival. I had seen a friend, and she sort of helped me get the final details on what this podcast was really going to be. I was sitting on it for like a month, and then I was like, the Christmas holidays are coming up, I’m going to have two weeks off to record everything. So I decided to start pitching to guests and recorded the majority of the season over the, over the holidays. And then ended up recording, I think two or three more, show episodes in January and have just been like editing those episodes ever since for a spring launch. So that’s kind of how I approached it. I was like, let’s batch record everything, do a manageable amount of podcast episodes for a season, and just go with that.
Meg:
I love how you say, I finally have a two week vacation. I’m going to use it to make more podcasts.
Kattie:
Yeah. I definitely underestimated the amount of work that was going to go into that, that’s for sure.
Meg:
That’s how we do most projects, right? If we truly thought about how much it would be, we would probably stop ourselves.
Kattie:
This is the thing. Because of the nature of the show being a chat podcast, I was like, it’s not going to take that much time to prepare. But then no matter what, to make a good show, something that you’re proud of, you have to prepare and you have to get some good stories together, especially if I expected it to be anywhere near the caliber of Normal Gossip.
So I was like, I have to like, get some good stuff and actually prepare for these episodes so I can’t just sit down and be like, “what do you got for me, guest. What do you got?”
Meg:
Well, and that’s what I wanted to ask you about, is that you’ve, you’ve done a lot of research on these episodes. You’re citing a lot of different sources, a lot of digital sources. I notice Reddit pops up a lot. How can it not? But I’m curious, how did you approach research? We’ll get to sort of the release in a minute, but so far you’ve got about half the episode, half the episodes are out where I think we’re right at the halfway mark.
And, you know, some of these places are like Stanstead, Quebec and Pickering, Ontario. Winchester Springs, like, these are not necessarily places you’d have a lot of background knowledge on. So how did you approach the research? How did you do that?
Kattie:
Well, Reddit is definitely a big one. And I will say there’s a little bit of strategy behind that as well, which is I’ve seen the popularity of Reddit read stories on TikTok. And just around town. And I’ve honestly become addicted to them. They’re like the things that I listen to when I fall asleep, so I don’t have to think about anything important.
So I love those kinds of shows. It’s just a guilty pleasure of mine. So Reddit has been a go to, and I’m literally just typing in the name of a town and seeing what comes up and follow any interesting threads from there, but other than that, the research I’m doing is, I’m looking at Facebook groups and seeing if I can get into any local Facebook groups from those towns, seeing if people are talking about anything that I should look into.
Sometimes I just type in the name of the town into Google News and see if there’s any recent news articles that have come up from interesting stories like that. But usually there’s a foundational sort of Wikipedia search where I see what comes up in a broad-strokes summary of a town, and same with on a town’s website, anything like that. And then that’ll give me some directions to go and research further. So that’s kind of how I approach it. It’s a bit of a chaotic approach. I’m not gonna lie, because there’s a couple of different places I always want to look. Because I do think that the anything from Reddit and anything from Facebook groups that I can find that is like a local source, somebody that’s telling something from literally something that happened to them is ideal, always.
But then if I can find anything in the news or anything more like mainstream put out there, then I’ll go for that too. But I’m definitely looking for the juicy little, like, local stories from somebody who lives there, who’s been living there ideally for like 30 years, you know.
Meg:
Well, and the first episode I feel I can, I’m a little bit more qualified to comment on because it was about Calgary and I’m based in Calgary, and Jess Schmidt, who you interviewed, it felt like in many ways you were sort of throwing info her way and asking the local to fact check it for you, which I found like just a really interesting conversation.
I’m wondering, in these interviews, have there been times where the information has been totally off or very weird, or have you found that generally these sources have been decently reliable?
Kattie:
Well, I always like to put in my show notes because I forgot to record this at the time, and I should just probably put it into the show. I always like to try and say that, this show is not from any credible sources. Nothing on it should be trusted or taken at face value. I think any everyone should be skeptical of everything they hear on the show.
So I do want to be able to like just rely on my guests to hopefully confirm or deny things. And that to me either way is I’m happy to hear because that just makes for interesting banter. But yeah, I don’t trust, I don’t believe anything on my show is fact checked, that’s for sure, if that is your question.
Meg:
Well, and a lot of the comments that people write about a place are based in opinion anyways, right? Like I’m just thinking, it was from that person of like all the reasons why, Mackenzie Lake, in this case, one of the neighborhoods in the south, west of Calgary is like boring and uninteresting and not unique. And you’re like, yes, I mean, that we could maybe argue that’s fact, but it’s opinion and other people may or may not corroborated anything. What is one of the most ridiculous things you have learned in your research or heard in one of your interviews so far?
Kattie:
So I have an episode about Whitehorse coming up later in the season. And I didn’t realize that the Trump family has roots in Whitehorse. There are multiple articles about this, so I’m pretty sure this is true.
Meg:
Oh, wow.
Kattie:
And Trump’s great great grandfather had set up some pretty shady Trumpian type things up in Canada’s north that are like, just everything you would expect from the Trump family. It’s very interesting. It’s very interesting. I’ll leave it at that because it’s a big story.
Meg:
Oh, I can’t wait to hear that one. In terms of chatting with other podcasters and specifically maybe not about podcasting, what have you, I don’t know, learned or gained from that experience?
Kattie:
I think I would say that if you’ve been in podcasting for a while, especially as an indie podcaster, it is easy to lose the joy of doing this. Because you can find…you can just fulfill so much of your time worrying over like your download numbers, your analytics, trying to make a really good show, which is all really important stuff for sure.
But number one, if you aren’t having fun making your podcast, what’s the point of doing it at all? Or if you don’t feel proud of it, or you just start to lose the spark of making it? And what I found is, I think pretty much every guest that I’ve had come on the show has expressed to me how much fun they had coming on the show, and how much fun they’ve had talking about something that isn’t what they normally talk about, something about their hometown that they could easily talk about but don’t normally get to.
So I think hopefully this show is really sparking that love of the medium again for them and how much fun you can really have in podcasting and how what’s so great about it is that it relies on personality and being charismatic and being authentic and just having a good time. There are obviously serious shows out there, but I think that even like Pulitzer Prize-winning shows are very much based around how somebody’s own sense of self and being is, is impacted by the story that they’re telling.
So I think it just has brought back, how important authenticity is in podcasting. I at least I hope for those people.
Meg:
And on that topic, I’m thinking of joy or authenticity. What is it about podcasting that you’re interested in right now that you’re trying to learn more about, or you’re seeing is sort of your focus for the next while?
Kattie:
Yeah. I mean, I am excited to just see — I haven’t launched a show of my own pretty much of, like, ever. Actually, no, I have probably way back when, in 2014, which was a very different time. So right now I’m excited to just be producing and hosting this show all by myself and promoting it all by myself and just getting that experience of just doing it solo and just seeing what happens to hopefully make a podcast successful.
I’m getting a better understanding of how much, having a brand behind a podcast really can support you in making a successful podcast. And I’m definitely very intrigued right now in learning the ins and outs of the business side of podcasting. Who knows each other, who helps each other, and how accessible certain things are to other folks.
Because I’ve been in the podcasting game professionally, in a matter of different capacities, I’m getting a better idea of how accessible things like Apple Podcasts promotions are for certain people, how people don’t even know about certain things. Because I’m so deeply curious about this space, I’ve learned a ton, and I realize how much people genuinely just don’t know about this space because they don’t have the time to be as curious as I am about it.
And it helps that I’m pretty annoying about finding these answers, too. So basically, there’s no real actual sentence to answer your question, there. I’m just like, constantly curious about knowing about how this whole ecosystem works. And right now I’m I’m kind of being exposed to the monetary side of it a bit more and the more, the parts of it that are actually corporate, I think are very interesting.
Meg:
And they’re the parts that are the least transparent. Right? Like there’s never been a need for that. And I think that’s where a lot of these questions and where people are wondering it and what makes it less accessible.
Kattie:
To totally, totally. Yeah. I’m hoping to get more answers about like recently I wrote an article about, where the money is for Canadian podcasts and advertising. So that was something that was I was deeply curious and interested in, and a lot of people were saying told me after where they were grateful for that article to exist because they just didn’t even know where to begin to think about sponsorships and where money is for podcast advertising.
And I think it made it a little clearer for some folks of where to spend their energy in putting together pitches for sponsorships and versus who to ask for help instead.
Meg:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And so the next episode from Canardian is going to be which city?
Kattie:
Ooh, which one is it going to be? Oh, it’s going to be, Orleans, which is a suburb just outside of Ottawa. That’ll be out on May 20.
Meg:
Awesome. And where can people find you online? If they want to subscribe to Pod the North or Find Canardian?
Kattie:
There are many places to find me, but you can find Pod the North at podthenorth.com. It’s a Substack newsletter you can read all the past issues, but if you subscribe, you’ll get fresh ones to your inbox every two weeks. And the link to Canardian is there too. But you can also search for Canardian on your favorite podcast app and find that as well.
And also you can find me and contact me if you’d like to at kattielaur.com.
Meg:
Awesome. Thank you so much Kattie.
Kattie:
Thank you.
Meg Wilcox teaches in Journalism and Digital Media at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Canada, and is co-director of the school's Community Podcast Initiative. An award-winning podcaster, she has been making podcasts for more than a decade, and loves collaborating with community members, students and organizations to tell audio stories. Before joining MRU, Meg travelled the country as a reporter, producer, and host (CBC, iPolitics, CTV, Banff Centre Radio, CKUA). Her first book, The New Journalist's Guide to Freelancing, is out now through Broadview Press.